My Google Chat with Tao Lin
Tao Lin is the author of at least two wonderful books (2/2 for the ones I’ve read), Eeeee Eee Eeee and his most recent, Shoplifting From American Apparel, which you should go buy right now; it’s one of my favorite books I read this year, easily. A few days ago, I won an eBay auction for a 30 minute conversation with him on Google Chat. Here it is. (We went a little bit over on time.)
—
me: Hi Tao, I’m here if you’re ready
Tao: hi geoff, i’m ready
me: outstanding
Tao: is your last name ‘litwack’
me: Yes
Tao: hehe, nice
thought it was something about ‘literary’ wack or something
me: ha ha
no, family name
Tao: interesting
me: i believe it’s from the original name for belarus
which is ‘litwa’
Tao: interesting
me: but who knows
i have a name question for you
Tao: ok
me: is your first name
with a D sound?
Tao: no, T
me: I see
ok
i thought so but wasn’t sure
Tao: i’m ‘down’ with D
me: mm
Tao: what do you want to talk about?
me: i have prepared questions
a few
Tao: sweet
me: after
i would like you to give me some life advice
Tao: ok
me: and then if we have time we can have a free form discussion
Tao: sounds good
me: also, feel free to ask me questions
Tao: ok
where are you?
me: first question
oh i’m in LA
the valley
Tao: nice
me: it’s ok
Tao: ok, first question
me: your current age
Tao: 26
you?
me: 30
i don’t feel 30
Tao: what do you feel
me: i feel 17
and have for the past 13 years
Tao: interesting
i feel 60 sometimes
me: yeah
but that’s how i felt at 17
old
Tao: damn
how old did you think i was
me: i thought you were 25
i knew you were young
Tao: i have turned 26
me: what’s your birthday?
Tao: july 2
me: i see
i’m june XX [Nb. redacted; this is the only thing in this conversation i edited except for one stupid spelling error on my part]
so, close
Tao: interesting
me: i may censor this on my blog in the interest of online security
Tao: online security, in what way?
me: it’s a security question, your birthday
for banking
etc
Tao: oh, interesting
i don’t mind
me: i sound jewish, huh
Tao: i think i used my mother’s maiden name for security questions, or something
me: yeah, that too
Tao: i don’t anticipate having money that people can steal anyway
me: aww c’mon
you are going to do fine
i know it’s been a struggle so far
Tao: hehe
what other questions do you have?
me: ok
i want to get the literary stuff out of the way
i’m not a journalist or something
so these are personal sort of
first
i read Shoplifting
that was your first work i encountered
i was v. impressed by it
Tao: interesting
me: my thought was
i’m going to use your single quote marks here
‘this is what i thought literature was going to be like in 2010, in 2000.’
Tao: ’jesus’
me: sorry
Tao: interesting
me: then i used amazon prime to get e.e.e.
which i strongly disliked for 20 pages, and then loved
Tao: hm, interesting
me: i initially misunderstood your intent
Tao: what did you think my intent was at first
me: assuming i correctly understood it after those 20 pages
crude postmodernism
Tao: i see
me: in a reactionary way
Tao: hm
me: given that postmodernism is now a dated form
Tao: how did you first ‘encounter’ ’sfaa’
me: good question
on the web
ah
rex sorgatz
Tao: where
me: Fimoculous
Tao: who is that
me: blog
he’s an old, old school blogger
Tao: i’ve never heard of that
me: awesome dude
fimoculous.com/
Tao: how old is he
me: 35ish?
Tao: nice
what did he say
me: he mentioned it
i believe he knew of you from before somehwo
somehow
Tao: i see
me: he’s from minnesota
friends with diablo cody, chuck klosterman
that set
Tao: is he famous?
me: no
Tao: or seomthing
me: he’s more of a connector
Tao: a connector
me: rex, if you read this, i apologize if i have mischaracterized you
Tao: interesting
me: so anyway
Tao: rex
me: your work reminds me most of certain french writers
Tao: interesting, who
me: Toussant, Robbe-Grillet and the Perec of “Things.”
Not Houellebecq, as some have said
Tao: hm, i’ve read some of perec
me: i love Perec
not his later oulipo work
i mean, i love that but you don’t remind me of it
Tao: does he have an afro
me: kind of actually
he’s dead
Tao: ’why’?
how did he get an afro, i mean
me: jewish
jewfro
Tao: oh yeah
i see
me: um
do you think of your work in the context of other writers?
Tao: i’ve read half of a houllebecq novel
me: which one?
Tao: i don’t remember
where he goes on vacation
me: oh uh
atomized
Tao: and doesn’t ‘connect’ with the other people
me: or whatever they call it here
Tao: then i think he has sex with prostitutes
me: yeah, lots of sex
Tao: i view my work as in the tradition of the ‘kmart realists,’ as they were termed by tom wolfe and others
me: but on the main point
this calvino idea of your book on a shelf with other books
Tao: yes, the group of writers called ‘kmart realists’ by journalists
me: okay
so you identify with them
ann beatie etc
Tao: do you know them at all
yeah
me: not all of them
Tao: i just like their writing and have been influenced by it in my writing
me: that’s good
i am going to read them more extensively
Tao: i recommend ‘chilly scenes of winter’ or ‘distortions’ by ann beattie
and ‘honored guest’ by joy williams
me: great
i will order those
Tao: nice
me: okay
this is my next question
about single quote marks
Tao: yes
me: i pretyped this so i’m just going to paste it in
Tao: hehe, ok
me: Your use of single quotation marks – my thought is you use them to sort of designate mind-watching-mind objects of what the buddhists call rigpa/vidya, to remove the reader from the flow of absorbtion and call their attention to the nature of a ‘cheeto’ or whatever. Or a feeling; ex. in your Twitter stream you write “found my ipod cord, ‘lightheadedly’ felt feelings toward it like it had been ‘disobedient’”.
It seems like you’re trying to strike at something cognitive, not something anthropological.
do you agree with any part of that?
Tao: good job quoting my twitter
me: thank you
Sent at 12:14 PM on Wednesday
Tao: it seems like what you typed could be one thing i’m doing
me: okay
Tao: i would say i’m not calling attention to the nature of a word, but calling attention to my ‘relationship’ with the word
me: and we intuit the nature of this relationship from context?
obviously i guess
Tao: that i’m using said word ‘not literally,’ ‘with a definition different than the conventional definition,’ or that i’m ‘using the word with some degree of irony or sarcasm,’ or that i’m ‘taking a perspective different than my normal perspective for a moment, therefore “quoting” the word, from someone else’s perspective, that i assume the reader will know, to some degree’ (i think my use of single quotes isn’t consistent in this paragraph)
me: i see
okay
thank you
Tao: for example i feel uncomfortable using non literal language sometimes
me: me too
Tao: so i put quotes around it, so people know i feel uncomfortable, to some degree, using that language
so they can know ‘who i am’ better
me: that discomfort is magic
Tao: so we can ‘connect’ more effectively
for example if i read someone’s blog and they had a lot of non literal language or idioms i would feel less connceted to them, and less inclined to contact them to be friends with them
me: i don’t know if you read my blog
Tao: but if they put quote marks around some of those idioms i would feel closer to them, and might want to contact them or something
me: did you feel it was literal or non literal?
Tao: i read some of it
i think neutral
me: mmm
that is fair
Tao: i didn’t immediately label it literal or non literal, so maybe it was literal
based on what i read and the level of thought i used re what i was reading
me: isee
space
i’m a screenwriter
Tao: i saw your review of ‘the girlfriend experience’
me: being literal and shaving descriptions is v. important to me
Tao: did you say you didn’t feel it was substantial?
me: sort of
yes
Tao: interesting
me: i liked her performance
however
Tao: would you say then that ’sfaa’ isn’t substantial, as they both ’stay on the surface’ of things
me: no
SFAA is very substantial
Tao: interesting
me: in part because of your use of time
Tao: i se
e
me: girlfriend experience shies away from film tropes
which one level is good
but on another, limiting
Tao: what are you working on screenplay wise right now?
me: the spec i wrote with my little sister
we’re going out to studios with it next week
Tao: how old is she?
me: 23
Tao: sounds exciting
what do you expect to happen
me: i expect to make $32000 after taxes
join the wga
and write another spec with her
Tao: wow
me: not wow, Tao!
Tao: don’t have ‘need’ to get an agent though
me: i have an agent
Tao: and the agent tries to sell it
oh, nice
damn
me: i’m at CAA
blowing my own horn
Tao: nice
me: thank you
Tao: i’ve made like $18000 in 6 years
me: but uh
Tao: on writing
me: i know
i was going to ask you about that
Tao: aren’t people supposed to be trying to option my books for movies
and paying me money
me: yes
but
your work is not adaptable, of the two i read
Tao: damn
me: that’s what makes it good, in part
Tao: i see
me: if you want to write a film, write a film, but don’t write something as bait for adaptation
Tao: seems like someone in hollywood should still be optioning my books
me: you are too talented for that bullshit
Tao: ’just to be safe’
me: perhaps
many options are for $0
Tao: ben stiller or someone
i see
me: his company is Red Hour
he has been working on an adaptation of Civillwarland In Bad Decline for ten years
TEN YEARS
Tao: damn
me: yeah
Tao: what is he working on
me: with civilwarland, or in general?
Tao: civilwarland
me: getting the script ‘just right’
Tao: i see
me: to make it commercial
Tao: interesting
me: we have four minutes
i have many more questions
fuck
Tao: i can stay a little longer
me: okay
Tao: what is your next question
me: your IQ
i read it was 172 or something
Tao: haha damn
me: did you say that, or was that a cruel dig
on the part of someone else
Tao: i think it wasn’t about me
it was someone’s IQ in a book or something
i think my IQ was tested at 139 or something
me: i see
Tao: i didn’t speak english
well
or osmething
me: jesus
Tao: so it might not be accurate
me: that’s a good result for no english
i’m sure not
Tao: what is your IQ
me: it was tested when i was four
Tao: al gore’s IQ is 142
me: so i am sure the multiplier fucked things up
i may still be the world’s smartest four year old
155
Tao: damn
were you in the ‘gifted’ program
me: i am not that smart
no, i didn’t go to school
Tao: you didn’t go to school
me: i was homeschooled
Tao: i see
me: i left home when i was 16, though
Tao: i think i used to view people by their IQ, now i view people based on how well adjusted they are and how concretely they view things
me: exactly
Tao: which seems not on the same spectrum as IQ
me: totally
Tao: or not entirely on the same spectrum
me: i prefer the new way
also, no one talked about asperger’s in the 80s
which i feel like is when iq was a popular measure
Tao: interesting
hm
what is your next question?
me: next
do you know Andrea Seigel, my BFF?
Tao: hm, the name seems familiar
me: i think you may have exchanged email in 2007
Tao: ill search my gmail
me: ok
Tao: oh, is she a writer
of ‘like the red panda’
me: yes
Tao: oh, cool
i read that book
i see she emailed me saying she liked my ‘the stranger’ article about fiction writers
i didn’t know that was her
me: oh, i see
Tao: how is she doing
me: not well frankly
personal family reasons
otherwise fine
Tao: how is her career going
me: Well
she just signed with UTA
Tao: what is that
me: her junior adult book is coming out
another big film agency in la
Tao: interesting
how old is she?
me: 29
turning 30 this year
Tao: interesting
me: we went to school together
although we were not friends there
she thought i was a stupid stoner
Tao: bennington?
me: i thought she was a weird goth
no, brown
Tao: she was a goth?
hehe
me: she got her mfa at bennington
Tao: i think i remember her looking goth in her author photo
me: she’s not goth now
on the outside
Tao: damn
me: i consider myself to be kind of a goth, inside
Tao: damn
me: although not with the victorian trappings, at all
Tao: interesting
goth
me: i read your thing about juggalos
Tao: gothic
me: they’re kind of like degraded goths
Tao: haha
degraded goths, damn
me: goths without a philosophy
Tao: what is the origin of the term ‘juggalo’
seems weird
me: i don’t know
Tao: jugs
me: floridia must be involved
Tao: seems really weird
seems good, though
there seem to be ‘millions’ of them
me: yeah
Tao: seems weird
what is your next question
me: next
are there any visual artists you admire
Tao: hm
i don’t think so
i don’t know of any really
me: mmm
that’s fine
Tao: i like graphic novels by adrian tomine, chris ware, daniel clowes, jeffrey brown, joe matt, chester brown
me: i have read all of those authors
Tao: julia wertz
me: her i don’t know
Tao: who is your favorite
me: hard to say
i am moved by current art that
i would understand if people don’t like
kaws
neckface
Tao: i see
me: marc dean veca
Tao: i don’t really feel ‘moved’ by anything that doesn’t have language, i think
even music, i feel
me: even music?
wow
Tao: maybe
i’m not sure
me: i remember crying to neutral milk hotel
Tao: if it has lyrics that counts as ‘language’ for me
me: i see
Tao: i feel moved by music with lyrics
me: i have been moved by non-lyrical music
Tao: what is your next question
do i seem ‘mean’
me: i wonder if you know my ex-girlfriend
no!
not at all
Tao: who is she?
oh, good
me: Nathalie Chicha
Tao: oh, damn
me: she lives in brooklyn
you live in brooklyn
Tao: i’ve never met her but i emailed a few times
me: really
Tao: let me serach my gmail
me: what did you talk about?
Tao: i think i was trying to get her job
as blogger for galleycat
me: at gallycat?
ah
Tao: and then one time i was interviewing her
for my journalism class
me: i see
i thought you might know her, even though i had no basis for that thought
Tao: damn, seems like everyone knows everyone
me: i am waaaay out at the fringe
Tao: i think i read a short story by her one time on ‘xconnect’ or something
me: she’s a talented writer
i wish she wrote more
Tao: what is she doing now
me: i don’t know
i keep trying to get in touch with her, and she keeps not answering my email
Tao: damn
me: nothing bad happened
Tao: is she on the internet still
me: she can just be avoidant
no
apparently not
Tao: danb
damn
interesting
me: i still love her
not romantically
Tao: damn
me: however
i promised to love her always
Tao: what is she doing, if she has left the internet
me: and i am keeping that promise
i honestly don’t know
i know what her last job was, but i don’t know if she still has it
Tao: seems like she must have moved to a foreign country, or become a school teacher or something, to leave the internet
me: she left a while ago
abandoned her blog
Tao: hm
how long did you date her
me: three years almost to the day
Tao: i just googled her and she has a tiwtter
me: does she?
wow
Tao: with no tweets though
me: oh
Tao: are you fb friends with her
me: yes
Tao: interesting
does she just add anyone
me: i don’t know
Tao: or allow anyone to be her friend
me: i’m sure she’ll add you though
Tao: ’guess i’ll add her’ since i clicekd her page and am here
me: good idea
Tao: 3 years, seems like a long time
me: it was my longest relationship
Tao: hm
did you live in brooklyn then
me: no
this was at college
then she moved to iowa to get her mfa and i couldn’t hack it
Tao: interesting
damn
me: although we were basically breaking up before then
Tao: i’ve known all the poeple you’ve asked me if i knew
me: yes
Tao: interesting
me: but i’m out of people
Tao: seems like everyone just knows eveyrone
do you have more questions
me: advice
i know this is running on
three things, if you have time
Tao: i have time
me: while we’re on the topic
how should i find a new girlfriend?
Tao: hm
internet
i’ve found my girlfriends on the internet
my answer seems to be ‘internet’
me: through your work, or institutional sites?
i don’t see you on okcupid
Tao: my blog
and work
i haven’t used any ‘institutional’ things
me: i am blogging wrong
Tao: people i know have used those effectively, i think, though
me: okay
Tao: craigslist
me: really? that i find frightening
Tao: what other advice do you want
me: you are extremely productive
five books in very few years
Tao: i would avoid craigslist, i feel
me: how do you stay so productive?
do you have ‘tips?’
Sent at 12:46 PM on Wednesday
Tao: i think by naturally not having urges to ‘hang out’ with people, not having a tv, not having a personal or laptop computer for a long time (only library), and almost always wanting to ‘feel more sad’ or ‘analyze it more’ (causing ‘work’ to be produced) when feeling sad instead of ‘blocking it out’ by drinking alcohol or forcing myself to sleep
me: that is amazing
Tao: and when i have a girlfriend i feel satisfied in terms of ’social life’ with just the girlfriend
me: i see
Tao: so i spend all my time away from them ‘working’
me: i understand
Tao: what is your third item of advice
me: what do you do when you feel anxious, to overcome it?
Tao: hm
in social situations i just keep feeling anxious most of the time
while alone i don’t really feel anxious
me: you don’t feel anxious alone no matter where you are in the world?
Tao: maybe sometimes i’ll think about ‘death’ and ‘the arbitrary nature of the universe’ and i’ll feel more calm/detached
me: that makes sense
Tao: if i’m in an anxiety causing situation, like being late to meet someone, i just think that if i focus on the anxiety it will just create more problems, so if i want to be more effective in solving my problem i should logically ‘choose’ to not feel anxious, and that usually works to some degree
me: you are more advanced than i am in that respect
but that is good advice
Tao: well, it doesn’t usually work probably
i’m not ‘zen’ at all, in my view, i get frustrated and annoyed a lot, it seems
me: mm
in my mid 20s, i lost most of my anger
that was a real loss
Tao: hm
me: so maybe the frustration is good
Tao: i think i don’t have any anger at all
i don’t know
hm
me: i just meant that maybe things we characterize as ‘negative’ can sometimes be ‘positive’
Tao: do you have other questions?
i see, that makes sense
me: only if you are satisfied with this transaction
Tao: yes, i am very satisfied, how about you?
me: from the sale, to the execution of the conversation
very satisfied
Tao: i see your bid as a sort of donation to me, of which i thank you for
and i’ll link the gchat if you post it, gaining you hits
me: yes, thank you
Tao: i enjoyed talking to you
seems interesting re andrea/nathalie
me: yes
they’re both amazing
in their own ways
Tao: i completely forgot about them both
but remember knowing a lot about each sort of at one time in the past
seems interesting
i am ‘holding in’ a lot of pee right now
me: okay
go!
but
Tao: thank you for bidding on the gchat and for chatting w/ me
me: i want to say, i count myself as a true fan of yours and
anxious await the next book
Tao: oh, good
thank you
me: i will now friend you on facebook and post this to my blog
Tao: will check your blog periodically, i feel
me: wonderful
Tao: have a nice day
me: you too Tao